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karatecatman


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Airlines lacking CAT III trained pilots in trouble
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http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1833161,0008.htm
Airlines lacking CAT III trained pilots in trouble


Gaurav Choudhury


New Delhi, October 31, 2006
 
 
With winter fast approaching, the government has decided to crack the whip on airlines that fail to appoint the required number of pilots adequately trained to navigate jets in thick fog.


The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) held a meeting on Monday to review the preparedness of the airlines. A top civil aviation ministry official, who did not wish to be named, said several airlines would fall significantly short of the required number of pilots as per the laid down norms.


“These airlines, who fall short of the required number of pilots trained in CAT II and CAT III instrument landing systems (ILS), would either have to voluntarily reschedule their flights that land and take off from the Delhi airport during day time when the visibility is much higher or employ more trained pilots,” said the official.


The CAT III ILS was installed at the Delhi airports about three years ago, but only a small percentage of domestic pilots know how to use it.  While CAT II trained pilots can land within a visibility of 350 meters, those trained in CAT III can land and take off with a visibility of 200 meters.


The number of trained pilots required for meeting the stipulated norms are in direct proportion to the number of take-offs and landings taking place in the morning (5 to 10 a.m.) and evening hours (6 to 10 p.m.). For instance, if a particular airline undertakes five flights in these hours from Delhi, it is required to have a minimum of 11 (number of flights multiplied by two plus 10 per cent) pilots trained to handle the CAT II and CAT III navigation systems.


The DGCA had issued norms in December last year as a thick blanket of fog enveloped Delhi resulting in frequent flight delays and causing major inconvenience to passengers.


“They have had sufficient time to train their pilots as the circular detailing the norms were issued in December last year,” said the official.


Jet Airways executive director Saroj Datta refused to comment saying: “It is a requirement which we need to furnish to DGCA and we have done it.” Sources said Jet Airways and Indian (Airlines) have the sufficient number of pilots to meet the norms.


Jeh Wadia of Go Air refused to divulge the number of trained pilots the airline has but said it has sufficient pilots to meet the norms.


In the case of private airlines, most pilots are trained in CAT II. A CEO of a private low-cost airline said the DGCA circular issued last year makes it mandatory for all operators to qualify for CAT I for one year and within the next six months CAT II training has to be given.


“That means that an airline can only apply for CAT III after one and half years of its operations in CAT I. How can a new airline be CAT III in one year is beyond anyone’s guess,” he said.


An airline has to invest Rs 7,50,000 per head in training their pilots, besides the recurring costs of Rs 2,50,000 annually per pilot to keep the licence running.
 
 



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the_380


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I can give my own summary on this.


Indian Airlines is the only airline currently in India which has trained its pilots for CAT III B conditions that refers to low/zero visibility landing. Last year for the first time they used this on flights to DEL from BOM.


Only iC operated flights almost on-time unlike others facing horrible delays.


Kingfisher Airlines has installed CAT III B systems on most of its A320s but hasn't trained its pilot because of the expenses and time consumption. It doesn't find a very optimistic option there


Other airlines like 9W, S2, DN, SG and GoAir aircrafts do not have CAT III B systems at all.


I have no knowledge about IndiGo...but im predictiong neither they would have installed it.


So to all those flying to DEL this winter prefer IC as only their flights will be almost on time. No weather delays.


rgds


the_380



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HAWK21M


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Considering the Expenditure & the Duration of Fog schedule.Its move economical to Reschedule the Flights.


As for IC & AI ,its the Taxpayer money so no big dent in finances.


regds


MEL



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JumboJet


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9W does not have CAT III trained pilots......


Are we sure on this



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the_380


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JumboJet wrote:


9W does not have CAT III trained pilots......


Are we sure on this




CAT III has two conditions CAT III A and CAT III B


9W has CAT III A trained pilots (some-infact very few) but not CAT III B


CAT III B condition refers to zero visibility ldg. The training for this is expensive and not worth for a country like India. its only necessary for a country like Germany or Russia where visibility is a regular problem.



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VABBy


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the_380 wrote:


CAT III has two conditions CAT III A and CAT III B


9W has CAT III A trained pilots (some-infact very few) but not CAT III B


CAT III B condition refers to zero visibility ldg. The training for this is expensive and not worth for a country like India. its only necessary for a country like Germany or Russia where visibility is a regular problem.




Excuse me I guess during certain period lasting to about 2-3 months u have almost zero visibility at most of the airports in North India. Leading to massive delays and troubles to pax flying with their schedules going hay wire and ur saying its not worth it???

Watz the locus standi for such a comment. They can invest millions of USD in buying aircrafts bt cant train pilots to provide a reliable service

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the_380


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vabby wrote:


Excuse me I guess during certain period lasting to about 2-3 months u have almost zero visibility at most of the airports in North India. Leading to massive delays and troubles to pax flying with their schedules going hay wire and ur saying its not worth it???

Watz the locus standi for such a comment. They can invest millions of USD in buying aircrafts bt cant train pilots to provide a reliable service


Mate,


Investment is not the only option.


To train a pilot for CAT III B it takes about 10 days plus trainee flying for DGCA clearance which means an approximate of 14 days a pilot is not flying. And neither can airlines EVER afford to train one or two pilots at a time. Minimum number is 10 pilots at a time. Imagine losses for the airlines to have 10 pilots grounded at a time.


Besides when all the airlines are not training for this situation there won't be any competition (leave alone IC)


So if there is a fog delay all flights are delayed. So not a big deal. As i said again this is suitable for mostly countries facing severe winter like Germany and Russia where its a primary requirement. India only faces the winter for 3-4 months at the most. Also the visibilty improves in the afternoon time when all flights resume regularly.In a place like Germany or Russia whole day situation remains the same.


Besides most of the aircrafts are not even cleared for CAT III A. So systems have to be updated. Again this clearly refers to aircraft grounding for about 8-10 days at the most. Count the growing expenses other than simply investing millions.


Airline authorities definately have a better mind than mine. Installing and operating under CAT III B conditions is much into their mind. But they aren't doing it although it can be helpful. So there must be a strong reason behind this.


rgds


the_380



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the_380


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Also i must add that installing CAT III B systems in the airports is an expensive project. At present in India only DEL has the most effective CAT III B systems. BOM and CCU have CAT III B systems but they are ineffective...not so good guidance

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JumboJet


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Thank you for your indepth analysis

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the_380


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JumboJet wrote:

Thank you for your indepth analysis


No problems... Thank you


I always love sharing my knowledge



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HAWK21M


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The Fog last year was bad for Aviation.Hopefully this year will be more relaxed.With Night ops We face a tough time.


regds


MEL



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JumboJet


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Is this true:


ILS approaches in Mumbai are available on the 27 (CAT II) and 09, 14 and 32 ends (CAT I). As regards actual (truncated) use of both runways, only 11,303 ft (3,445 m) is designated usable at 09/27 and 9,596 ft at 14/32, especially for landings.



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karatecatman


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Fog preparedness of airlines reviewed
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www.uninews.com


 Fog preparedness of airlines reviewed


New Delhi, Nov 9 (UNI)


The Civil Aviation Ministry today took stock of the fog preparedness of all airlines in the country, with the Met Department forecasting that airports in the northern region would experience foggy weather from the first week of December. At a meeting attended by representatives of all major carriers, the Ministry also informed them that new radars, particularly the Surface Movement Radar (SMR), were likely to be in place to ensure operation of CAT-III (Category-III) Instrument Landing System at the Delhi airport, sources said.


Most of the carriers operating the Airbus series of aircraft, like Indian, Kingfisher, GoAir and Air India, were geared up to face the fog as their planes were equipped with the requried instrument to connect with the CAT-III system and their pilots trained, the sources said.


However, small planes like the ATR turboprops are not fitted with such equipment. The airline officials also spoke of problems of boarding and lodging faced by passengers in case the flights get cancelled. There was a lack of hotel rooms in most major cities, they complained at the meeting. The Met Department has forecast that Delhi would experience dense fog from December beginning, two weeks before it normal onset.



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HAWK21M


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RE: Airlines lacking CAT III trained pilots in trouble
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Dec begining seems too early.Hopefully the MET Dept forcast is wrong.Fog strikes in Jan Begining to Feb Begining.


regds


MEL



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JumboJet


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JumboJet wrote:


 


Is this true:


ILS approaches in Mumbai are available on the 27 (CAT II) and 09, 14 and 32 ends (CAT I). As regards actual (truncated) use of both runways, only 11,303 ft (3,445 m) is designated usable at 09/27 and 9,596 ft at 14/32, especially for landings.



Any one

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karatecatman


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Indian ready with fog contingency
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IA should be the only airline with a largely intact schedule this winter.


Indian ready with fog contingency


National carrier Indian is all set to effectively handle its annual tryst with fog this winter. Foggy conditions over northern India and the resultant low visibility often lead to flight disruptions not only in the north, but across the airline's network.


At a high-level meeting with heads of operational departments at Delhi today, Chairman and Managing Director Vishwapati Trivedi reviewed the preparedness of different departments to tackle fog. The airline's endeavour, as always, is to ensure minimum inconvenience to passengers through timely and adequate information about disruption to flights and their subsequent rescheduling.


In this direction, the following measures have been taken by the airline :


Ø       Indian is the only airline to have a large number of trained pilots to operate in low visibility conditions. It has nearly 400 pilots trained to operate in CAT II/III B conditions, which will help minimise the delays and avoid cancellations.


Ø       The total of 54 aircraft - 48 A320s and 6 A319s – are ILS compliant.


Ø       The airline's 24 X 7 toll free service has been upgraded, with advanced software and hardware and additional manpower, to ensure that the dissemination of flight information is timely and speedy. Similarly, the crew roster system has also been upgraded with a view to optimize utilization of crew.


Ø       For the first time, the airline has engaged the services of a consulting meteorologist, to help in speedy forecast of weather conditions.


Ø       Special control rooms have been set up at the airports at all major bases to plan and implement the fog contingency plans.


Indian Airlines Ltd.


New Delhi


15th Nov.2006


 


                                                          


 



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HAWK21M


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RE: Airlines lacking CAT III trained pilots in trouble
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Our Revised Fog schedule is between 17/12/2006 to 16/02/2007.Quite Hectic & multiple ops with International Terminal & Domestic Terminal ops.Its going to be challenging.


regds


MEL



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DC3


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Also keep in mind the aircraft type operated:

A320 family have 3 autopilots (necessary for CATIIIB).

The 737 family does not - only 2 autopilots. For CATIIIB the operator has to purchase an add-on package that includes a Heads-Up display and other changes. Very Very few 737 operators actually have CATIIB capable aircraft (Southwest and Alaska come to mind).

So it is not just a matter of having CATIIIB trained pilots.

IC has benefited because their Airbus aircraft came equipped for CATIII, but it is a huge waste of tax money to certify and train all pilots for what is really 30-40 days of weather at just one metro airport!!!

-- Edited by DC3 at 16:54, 2006-11-28

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karatecatman


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DC3 wrote:


IC has benefited because their Airbus aircraft came equipped for CATIII, but it is a huge waste of tax money to certify and train all pilots for what is really 30-40 days of weather at just one metro airport!!!




But increased business/moolah for one airline!!! IA's USP for this winter, and maybe many more!!!



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HAWK21M


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Is the proposed DGCA ruling No flights into DEL beyond 2300hrs & Out of Del Before 0800hrs during Fog season going to be Applied to Cargo operators.Any link to this.


regds


MEL



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