PMO against IC AI merger. - Airliners-India

LAXDESI · Recruit

RE: PMO against IC AI merger.

COUGAR · Member

Tayara: for the last time: this is not abtwhat AI was in the 60s and 70's. It what it is today. And what it is against the other carriers including the state-owned IC.

As of today, IC is the better managed of the 2 state-owned carriers. Repeat: the better managed of the 2 state-owned carriers.

As for the IC hunt for ad agencies: I think that is the clearest indication yet of the Govt's desire to retain IC. IC needs its own branding in order to consolidate the gains made over the past 3 years. With own flights to PER/SYD, PVG, Guangzhou, Europe/UK with the A332/A333 and Central Asia where there is gonna be some strong expansion of operations using existing A320's coming over the next year: IC needs its own brand presence to take on the giants. IC is not competing against AI which is a dead horse. It is preparing to take on the giants in the biz. Makes sense IMO: at the end of it, IC will be a strong airline with an unbeatable domestic network and a medium-level international presence which can be ramped up when necessary. AI fills in the other international routes. Until the time it withers away that is.

Another bit of gossip that is doing the rounds: a very senior professional from a western carrier in sked to join IC: on the board or in an executive position I dunno yet. But this dude is said to be a guru in airline mktg circles.

tayara mechanici · Member

LAXDESI wrote:

tayara mechanici wrote:

AI was a PVT airline run by the TATAs and nationalised under the Janta Party rule in 1977.

AI was nationalised in 1953.

The Air India saga certainly hurt JRD, but he wasn't the kind to bear a grudge. Nehru insisted that he continue to head the national carrier and that's what JRD did, right up to 1977, when another act of government forced him out. Indira Gandhi, when she came back to power, reinstated JRD to the chairmanship, but by then he no longer had the appetite for the responsibility.

Air India was never just a job for JRD; it was a labour of love. Tata executives would always be complaining — in private, undoubtedly — that their chairman spent more time worrying about the airliner than he did running all of the Tata Group. JRD's ardour for and commitment to Air India was what made it, at least while he was at the helm, a world-class carrier. Wrote Anthony Simpson in his book Empires of the Sky: "The smooth working of Air India seemed almost opposite to the Indian tradition on the ground… [JRD] could effectively insulate Air India from the domestic obligation to make jobs and dispense favours."

The qualities that JRD brought to the running of Air India were as much in evidence in his steering of the Tata Group.

EFFECTIVELY JRD departed from AI only after 1977/

COUGAR · Member

The withering away of AI began just after JRD' exit.

Conversely there has been a sea-chnge in the working of the other carrier IC ever since people like Trivedi and even more so: Sunil Arora came in to run IC. There are also 3 very senior lady managers in IC who are credited with this turnaround, but I dont remember their names.

Ironically, Sunil Arora was to be given charge of AI, but that ran into opposition from within AI since AI staff couldnt bear to tolerate Arora (a non RC/Parsi/Madrassi) inside "Fort Kalina". So thulasidas it was! And look where he took AI!

tayara mechanici · Member

COUGAR wrote:

Ironically, Sunil Arora was to be given charge of AI, but that ran into opposition from within AI since AI staff couldnt bear to tolerate Arora (a non RC/Parsi/Madrassi) inside "Fort Kalina". So thulasidas it was! And look where he took AI!

So where does Tulsidas fit into the RC/PARSU/MADRASI equation. And where do you think AI is after TD coming onboard ?

COUGAR · Member

Where do u think Thulasidas is from? :D

Do you think there has been an improvement in performance, on-time, inflight services, yields and most importantly profitability.

The bad decision to setup AIX for example is now coming back to bite AI in the ass. This is the one issue that is going to claim TD's scalp.

HAWK21M · Member

The AI decline started after JRD lost control of this once great Airline.

regds

MEL

-- Edited by HAWK21M at 13:24, 2006-09-27

karatecatman · Member

Can we all wait for the Accenture/Ernst report?!!!

karatecatman · Member

COUGAR wrote:

The withering away of AI began just after JRD' exit.

Conversely there has been a sea-chnge in the working of the other carrier IC ever since people like Trivedi and even more so: Sunil Arora came in to run IC. There are also 3 very senior lady managers in IC who are credited with this turnaround, but I dont remember their names.

Ironically, Sunil Arora was to be given charge of AI, but that ran into opposition from within AI since AI staff couldnt bear to tolerate Arora (a non RC/Parsi/Madrassi) inside "Fort Kalina". So thulasidas it was! And look where he took AI!

More than Sunil Arora, who also did spectacular work, it was Probir C. Sen.

The ladies: Ms. Manjira Khurana, General Manager (Product Development & Advertising), Indian Airlines Limited;; Indian Airlines Director (Commercial/Cargo) Anita Khurana (IA Cargo owes it success to her) & Acting CMD Sushma Chawla.

Sunil Arora was always for IA. He was only on the board of Air India and for a while was in charge till the appointment of Thulasi. Arora had a problem as it was the time when there was a serious look at route consolidation and it was felt that he was trying to ensure more of the apple pie for IA.

Thulasi isn't doing too bad a job, but is mortally afraid of PP, unlike Sunil Arora who didn't hesitate to bare his teeth.

-- Edited by karatecatman at 13:51, 2006-09-27

karatecatman · Member

COUGAR wrote:

The bad decision to setup AIX for example is now coming back to bite AI in the ass. This is the one issue that is going to claim TD's scalp.

You think so? (As deregularisation takes place in the regions around us, launching an LCC would have become just a matter of time. Look at the Gulf and the Far East. LCC's popping up like acne.) AIX seems to be having not less than 96% load factor at all times, and is generous in what it offers onboard -- food, and baggage allowance. (You can see the thread "Where AI Express is off to next": for the details.) Only thing that might threaten it is the proposed ferry service between Kerala and the Gulf --- 300 passenger capacity and a passenger baggage allowance of 60kg-90kg or more and the Kerala Govt subsidies.

AIX has given Air India a surprise in terms of contributing a neat segment of the profits. PP's own words and see the Air India annual report. (It's a different matter about the low figure Air India is quoting and the usual list of reasons retold year after year.)

In fact AIX is coming "to the rescue" of Air India. With the wet lease still in a fluid state, AIX's planes have come in handy to be "hijacked" for a while and for operations on the A310 routes.

-- Edited by karatecatman at 13:53, 2006-09-27

COUGAR · Member

If the picture is really so rosy as far as AIX goes, then why is AI being so defensive about it, shielding data about the real figures etc? I am curious how u quote th efigure of 96% occupancy. Any source for that?

Apart from occupancy, what are the yields?

There is a lot of confusion about AIX real purpose. I dont think these nincompoops thought the whole thing thru. Is it an LCC? Is it a Full service carrier? or somewhere in between?

They started out sayin that they would be single class and charge for everything other than water. Now they serve basic (boxed?) meals which is frankly pathetic. It would have been better to have good quality meals available for sale onboard like other Gulf based LCC's are doing.

And now we hear that half the 737-800's will have a J-Class? An LCC with a J-Class? Will J service on AIX b of a lower fare and service quality than normal AI? (as if that is even possible lower standards that is!!)

The latest I heard from an IC source is that AIX will have THREE classes on half the aircraft - J, Full Y with meals etc on rows 7 to 14, and the rest is "LCC-Y"! Other 737's will be 2 classes Full-Y and LCC-Y!!

Talk about confused!!

AI could have gone in for 737-800's operated under its own brand which are perfectly sized for many gulf routes and allows AI to explore markets like TRZ-SIN and TRZ-Gulf which would not be possible with A310's. But instead you have this crazy confusion!!

As for Thulasidas: he is a first rate idiot who deserves to be nothing more than a peon in a Govt office. IC comes out with a single promotional offer and he goes whining to the Civil Aviation Minister.

karatecatman · Member

COUGAR wrote:

If the picture is really so rosy as far as AIX goes, then why is AI being so defensive about it, shielding data about the real figures etc? I am curious how u quote th efigure of 96% occupancy. Any source for that?

Apart from occupancy, what are the yields?

There is a lot of confusion about AIX real purpose. I dont think these nincompoops thought the whole thing thru. Is it an LCC? Is it a Full service carrier? or somewhere in between?

They started out sayin that they would be single class and charge for everything other than water. Now they serve basic (boxed?) meals which is frankly pathetic. It would have been better to have good quality meals available for sale onboard like other Gulf based LCC's are doing.

And now we hear that half the 737-800's will have a J-Class? An LCC with a J-Class? Will J service on AIX b of a lower fare and service quality than normal AI? (as if that is even possible lower standards that is!!)

The latest I heard from an IC source is that AIX will have THREE classes on half the aircraft - J, Full Y with meals etc on rows 7 to 14, and the rest is "LCC-Y"! Other 737's will be 2 classes Full-Y and LCC-Y!!

Talk about confused!!

AI could have gone in for 737-800's operated under its own brand which are perfectly sized for many gulf routes and allows AI to explore markets like TRZ-SIN and TRZ-Gulf which would not be possible with A310's. But instead you have this crazy confusion!!

As for Thulasidas: he is a first rate idiot who deserves to be nothing more than a peon in a Govt office. IC comes out with a single promotional offer and he goes whining to the Civil Aviation Minister.

IATA has these figures through Air India. And now that Thulasi is on the IATA board, he presented AIX as an LCC case study at a recent IATA meet at Geneva. Supposed to have, last year figures, returned Air India about Rs. 15 cr. AIX lso gets a sales tax waver on its ATF.

AIX, being an international LCC, wanted to offer something more than just cookies and a water bottle. Even if you rate it with Jazeera and Air Arabia, which can still afford to (and have done so) have things like leather upholstery from front to last row, AIX's meal is still satisfactory. Also has a small duty free run. Jazeera and Air Arabia have this too.

This is what the AIX website says:
Welcome aboard Air-India Express, India's first international airline that offers great value for money and efficient service. Our mission is to provide convenient connectivity in the short-range routes at the most affordable prices to passengers.

Fleet
Our fleet consists of state of the art Boeing 737-800 aircraft. In keeping with our mission to provide budget travel, our aircrafts will have single class economy. The capacity of these aircraft is around 180 seats.

Staff
At Air-India Express, we believe that our employees are our strength and our success is dependent on their collective effort.

We pride ourselves in providing quick and efficient service to customers.

Maintenance and safety policy
At Air-India Express, we strive to give our passengers the best. Our fleet, comprising Boeing 737-800 aircrafts, is the latest in the airline industry. Our safety and maintenance standards are comparable to the best airlines in the industry.

Ground services
Our ground services meet the standards expected by the customer.

On-board services
Air-India Express gives its passengers all the essential on-board services needed for a comfortable flight. Free standardized meals and limited on-board entertainment facilities are available.

AIX is 2-class. Thulasi's point at Geneva was that even in an LCC market, there is still a segment that would like a upgraded product, which was why Air India has decided to have 2-class in some of the 737s. The further division the IA man says, must be some new internal arrangement. A bit of guesswork suggests that this must also be to keep the Govt. Of Kerala in good humour, which seems intent on making things difficult. Nothing seems to appease them. GoK is still livid that the Air Kerala experiment isn't taking off and have now come up with this ferry idea.

Thulasi, ... a peon? Just know that he freezes in front of PP.

-- Edited by karatecatman at 16:40, 2006-09-27

COUGAR · Member

karatecatman wrote:

AIX, being an international LCC, wanted to offer something more than just cookies and a water bottle. Even if you rate it with Jazeera and Air Arabia, which can still afford to (and have done so) have things like leather upholstery from front to last row, AIX's meal is still satisfactory. Also has a small duty free run. Jazeera and Air Arabia have this too.

AIX is 2-class. Thulasi's point at Geneva was that even in an LCC market, there is still a segment that would like a upgraded product, which was why Air India has decided to have 2-class in some of the 737s. The further division the IA man says, must be some new internal arrangement. A bit of guesswork suggests that this must also be to keep the Govt. Of Kerala in good humour, which seems intent on making things difficult. Nothing seems to appease them. GoK is still livid that the Air Kerala experiment isn't taking off and have now come up with this ferry idea.

Thulasi, ... a peon? Just know that he freezes in front of PP.

96% occupancy is one thing. But at what yields are these flights getting?

Nowhere does AIX say that is a 2-class operation. It was never meant to be. AIX started out as an idea to get 737's to operate domestic extensions on their own becoz AI mgmt were getting exasperated at IC. This would also have the advantage of freeing up some A310's fo rlong-hauling as well as free up bandwidth on some 744's which are doing domestic extensions. I had even read somewhere that these 737's were to be configured with 8 C-class seats and the rest economy and oieprated by mainline AI. Routes being considered were the extensions that are now operated by AI and IC(with AI flight nos). Uptil this point it was a good idea.

Then suddenly somebody got the brainwave that mebbe the 737's can also be utilized to fly to the Gulf instead of just lying around. So 5 737's became 12 and then became 18! And when Air Arabia and others started exlporing India, AI decided that the 737's should be operated as an LCC. Midway into it however they started having second thoughts, but found it difficult to roll-back having come this far! So then some were 2 class and now "Full Economy"!!!

This reflects confused thinking IMO. The idea to get 737's was correct. It would have freed up a lot of bandwidth on the A310's and 744 fleets. But things started going wonky with the LCC idea. And if you want to be an LCC then be an LCC!! Mix up 2 ideas and you have disaster!!

There is a reason RyanAir and Southwest have been successfull. Thats becoz they have stayed true to their original philosophy. On the other hand there are airlines like PeopleExpress. Know the difference? AIX is heading in that direction.

-- Edited by COUGAR at 08:49, 2006-09-28