Castesim in the Skies - Airliners-India

tayara mechanici · Member

Castesim in the Skies

Aseem · Member

chiefly because nobody was able to procure the link. Although it is being actively discussed on A.net. There also the picture is gloomy due to lack of link.

anyway it is really appalling. Won't blame the AZ guys, as had there been some other individual at the couter, the treatment would have been similar.

an eye opener for all arm-chair reformist...

rgds

VT-ASJ

tayara mechanici · Member

Aseem wrote:

anyway it is really appalling. Won't blame the AZ guys, as had there been some other individual at the couter, the treatment would have been similar.

Bollocks, though i appreciate your honesty however it reflects the hypocritical race that we are, at the same time i wouldn't paint everyone with the same brush. If resident outside of India, we would be hopping mad flashing the race card had this happened to oneself.

blrsea · Recruit

The word caste in the thread is misleading. How does one know that caste came into picture here. Do we even know the castes of the people involved? Why do we automatically assume that this was casteist response?

What happened was shameful, and shouldn't have happened. I hope Air Italia releases the action it took against the concerned person.

malik · Member

OK, so here's my RTI Application on the subject with MoCA . . . please also see the discussion on over this episode on the yahoo link provided . . .

To: S.K. Iyer, Esq., Under Secretary (CR) Unit, Central Point for Receiving RTI Mail, Ministry of Civil Aviation, Government of India, C.R. Unit, "B" Block, Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan, Safdarjung Airport, New Delhi 110003 subj : Application under Right to Information Act, 2005 Please provide me with the following information. I wish to specify that you may please not provide to me that information (or particular portion thereof) which would impede the prosecution of offenders under any law of India, and also any personal information which is unconnected with any public activity/interest or which invades the privacy of any person. I reserve my rights to receive this information by way of a written response or by inspecting the relevant records. THIS INFORMATION IS (ALSO) SOUGHT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST, AND THERE IS OVER-RIDING PARAMOUNT LARGER PUBLIC INTEREST TO BE GIVEN THE INFORMATION I HAVE ASKED FOR. In context with media reports on episode of denied boarding and subsequenly pertaining to removal of Indian citizen & Business Class passenger Mr. Santraj Maurya from IGI International Airport by Government authorities alongwith Alitalia officials, passenger booked on Alitalia from DEL on/around 2nd-3rd of September'06, please provide me with the following information:-

Who is or are the officer/officers in charge of taking action in such complaints of human rights violations?
Has an enquiry been conducted in the matter? If yes please provide copy of enquiry report.
What action, if any, has been taken against the Airline Alitalia, the Airport Authorities, the Security staff and others involved.
If no action has been taken on complaint likely date that enquiry will be conducted or action will be taken.

Media report enclosed:- http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060904/od_afp/indiaitalyairlineoffbeat_060904122216

Mon Sep 4, 8:22 AM ET

NEW DELHI (AFP) - An Indian eco-scavenger has claimed he was barred from flying business class because of his appearance.

Santraj Maurya, who earns his living recycling paper and plastic from Delhi's garbage dumps, said a charity had given him the ticket to travel to a waste disposal conference in Brazil. But Alitalia staff did not believe his explanation of how he had a business-class ticket costing thousands of dollars, he told the Asian Age newspaper on Monday. Maurya said that check-in staff at Delhi airport told him he would not be allowed to travel business class because he "did not look like a businessman". The airline called security and he was whisked out of the airport, the report said.

Maurya, who missed the conference in Belo Horizonte, Brazil, could not be contacted for further comment. But an Alitalia official denied Monday that the state-run carrier screened passengers on the basis of their socio-economic background. "We have no such policy. We have taken the allegation in a very serious way," said Fabio Bigotti, the airline's general manager in India, adding that the company would investigate the charges. "Our mission is to let our passengers fly in a better way."

The Chintan Environmental Research and Action Group reportedly brought Maurya a business-class ticket because all economy tickets had sold out.

Humbly, submitted, yours, sincerely,

-- Edited by malik at 15:18, 2006-09-06

Boeing7xx · Member

Here's what i encountered some months ago when IC was still operating DEL-BKK-SIN, we would have turnaround pilots since SIN was not a base yet, so we would regularly have pilots and commanders shifting between BKK and DEL. I happened to be on one such flight, at the immigration counter, the line seemed woefull long and i chose not to whisk out my airport card and walk right through the crew registration and instead stood the line (i was not in uniform and was not flying either so little chance that they would've entertained me anyways!). The line i was standing in seemed to get regularly disrupted by "elderly and disabled" on wheelchairs, while the elderly were hardly 1 or 2, the disabled seemed to just shoot through the roof! It was almost like a disabled line! and along with each disabled were 3-4 others who were travelling with them beating the line. At the end of 2hrs i did get a little upset and when this perfectly healthy looking aunty-jee with her 20-something daughters(4 of em) and 5-something son decided to jump the line(indians holding singapore passports), i blew a fuse and told them to get right back in line, at which point the daughters gang up and start off with "YOU BLOODY INDIANS ALWAYS HAVE A PROBLEM" and "INDIAN CITIZENS ARE S**T" the immigration staff held me back and let them through, i cleared immigration and went straight to the CISF jawans who claimed helplessness in this matter. I spoke to the airport manager as well who again seemed helpless and more occupied with clearing some ministers kids who were travelling to god-knows-where.

Now comes the interesting part, at the SIN airport (yep i flew all the way since i had 2 days off) the same aunty is in the pink of health walking briskly and seemingly unassumed that this was the same gang that was disabled sometime ago!!!!!!!!!!!

Its just that i think we put up with this nonsense that people get away with it. i brought this up in our staff meeting thereafter, but haven't heard anything yet.

I'm sure if they tried this stunt anywhere else they would be cooling their heels in the locker. I think Indian NRI's are more racist than the firangs themselves.

VOTV · Member

Airbus3xx wrote:

I think Indian NRI's are more racist than the firangs themselves.

It is true, not just the NRI's but applies to all Indians as well.

Being a from the south, I have felt it at many occasions. In the south we're no better ourselves.

tayara mechanici · Member

blrsea wrote:

The word caste in the thread is misleading. How does one know that caste came into picture here. Do we even know the castes of the people involved? Why do we automatically assume that this was casteist response?

What happened was shameful, and shouldn't have happened. I hope Air Italia releases the action it took against the concerned person.

AUTOMATICALLY, its all over the press, unfortunately can't get a link to a more descriptive article. Apparently the pax concerned is one Mr Maurya and he has been described as a scavenger. Now can you tell me of another country in this world where they have a job profile called as scavenger and the people working in this job are grouped as a caste again based on their duties.

The reason i want to discuss this in the aviation forum is that most members posting here happen to be educated under a modern liberal education system. Since aviation is a truly global business, the members consider India to have the same if not better standards in this industry. These standards include the handling of pax, this incident is covered under issues concerning pax handling in India. Inspite of the overt and covert forms of racism existing in the west, i am sure no airline in EU or N.America would have behaved the way the Alitalia manager has done.

I am sure Mr Maurya was adequately dressed, and inspite of being a person from the very low income group in India he would have surely bathed and groomed himself to the best of his ability as though he was off to a wedding while boarding his first flight. Mr Maurya's adequate dressing could have fallen short of the expectations of the check-in Manager but his desicion to offload him or rather deny boarding on the basis of his appearance smacks of nothing else but Castesim as it is practised only in India. I know this a one-off however its by these incidents that we are gauged in the west on our progress, Economic and social. I can see cartoon appearing in the western press soon (probably they have already), Indian aviation redefines Airline Travelling Class. Upper Class, Middle Class and Lower Class.

-- Edited by tayara mechanici at 22:22, 2006-09-07

AKLDELNonstop · Member

TM,

I agree with what you have to say. The way casteism has been made an issue here, it does give out a wrong impression of India to outsiders.

Cheers

Shub

himmat01 · Member

I think, Mr. Sood the AZ manager at DEL denied Mr. Maurya solely on basis of his name. I am pretty sure Maurya was well dressed for his first flight abroad. The AZ manager could not digest the fact that a "low caste" individual was flying business class. This kind of attitude is more prevalent in the north. The south is much more advanced socially.

tayara mechanici · Member

himmat01 wrote:

The south is much more advanced socially.

only because the self designated higher caste found themselves in minority as the so called lower caste converted enmass (ramnathpuram 70s). The irony was that these new converts found themselves facing a similar discrimination in their new religion.

Strongly believe education and economic progress is the only solution, its quite amusing to watch the sharmas, vermas (no offence ) cleaning terminals and operating dump trucks at heathrow.

-- Edited by tayara mechanici at 02:43, 2006-09-08

malik · Member

himmat01 wrote:

I think, Mr. Sood the AZ manager at DEL denied Mr. Maurya solely on basis of his name. I am pretty sure Maurya was well dressed for his first flight abroad. The AZ manager could not digest the fact that a "low caste" individual was flying business class. This kind of attitude is more prevalent in the north. The south is much more advanced socially.

Does anybody here have more details on this "Mr. Sood"? Thanks . . .

malik · Member

Some of us may recall the incident, a few days ago, of a young man travelling from Delhi to Brazil for a convention on waste management. The gentleman in question is a "scavenger", and was refused boarding by Alitalia for reasons as mentioned in the media report appended with this application.

So, towards doing a column,as well as because I felt that this was an insult to Indians "at large", I needed more information, and called up the airline, Alitalia. The response I got was broadly along the lines that it was their airline and they could do what they want, incuding denied boarding. Which, to some extent, is true enough. But then they added something about how the passenger in question was not able to communicate, and was not of the "correct" profile for travelling in Business Class.

Anybody who has travelled India-Europe by air, or on other routes too, is witness to the number of passengers who can not communicate in any language other than their mother tongue. In addition, Business Class or First Class is no longer subjected to class or race differentials.LLast trip I had the maid-servant of an airline official travelling next to me in Business Class, no big deal.

I therefore need more information from Alitalia. But how?

This is the sequence of progress so far, isn't it amazing?

06sep'06 - RTI Application filed by eMail with MoCA, since I am not aware of how to get this information from a private airline, that too a foreign airline.

09sep'06 - signed hard copy of above filed through PO Lodi Road, New Delhi. 11sep'06 - PO Lodi Road forwards it to PIO/MoCA under 6(3).

13sep'06 - I receive a receipt for the 6(3) from PO Lodi Road to PIO/MoCA.

13sep'06 - MoCA transfers it under 6(3) to PIO/DGCA.

14sep'06 - I receive my copy of the transfer from MoCA to PIO/DGCA

To give full credit to CPIO/MoCA, they made a 6(3) on the very same day they received the application, to PIO/DGCA, after discussing this episode with a Director/DGCA. Additionally, the copy of the 6(3) I got from MoCA to DGCA also instructs the PG Cell of the MoCA to keep me updated.

THIS is the real strength of the RTI Act, where governance and citizens can move together.I don't know CHINTAN, though I shall send them a copy of the mail so far, and they can proceed with it. I don't know "Santraj Maurya", but I know that he is an Indian who was thrown of an Alitalia airplane in India. I want to know why a wrong has been committed, and I can see how my Government helps me.

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: skiyer.moca@nic.in ; jssn.moca@ic.in

Cc: praful@sansad.nic.in

Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:11 PM

Subject: Application under RTI / MoCA 06sep'06

06th September'06 To: S.K. Iyer, Esq., Under Secretary (CR) Unit, Central Point for Receiving RTI Mail, Ministry of Civil Aviation, Government of India, C.R. Unit, "B" Block, Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan, Safdarjung Airport, New Delhi 110003

subj : Application under Right to Information Act, 2005

Please provide me with the following information. I wish to specify that you may please not provide to me that information (or particular portion thereof) which would impede the prosecution of offenders under any law of India, and also any personal information which is unconnected with any public activity/interest or which invades the privacy of any person. I reserve my rights to receive this information by way of a written response or by inspecting the relevant records. THIS INFORMATION IS (ALSO) SOUGHT IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST, AND THERE IS OVER-RIDING PARAMOUNT LARGER PUBLIC INTEREST TO BE GIVEN THE INFORMATION I HAVE ASKED FOR.

In context with media reports on episode of denied boarding and subsequenly pertaining to removal of Indian citizen & Business Class passenger Mr. Santraj Maurya from IGI International Airport by Government authorities alongwith Alitalia officials, passenger booked on Alitalia from DEL on/around 2nd-3rd of September'06, please provide me with the following information:-

Who is or are the officer/officers in charge of taking action in such complaints of human rights violations?
Has an enquiry been conducted in the matter? If yes please provide copy of enquiry report.
What action, if any, has been taken against the Airline Alitalia, the Airport Authorities, the Security staff and others involved.
If no action has been taken on complaint likely date that enquiry will be conducted or action will be taken.

Media report enclosed:- http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060904/od_afp/indiaitalyairlineoffbeat_060904122216

Mon Sep 4, 8:22 AM ET

NEW DELHI (AFP) - An Indian eco-scavenger has claimed he was barred from flying business class because of his appearance.

Santraj Maurya, who earns his living recycling paper and plastic from Delhi's garbage dumps, said a charity had given him the ticket to travel to a waste disposal conference in Brazil. But Alitalia staff did not believe his explanation of how he had a business-class ticket costing thousands of dollars, he told the Asian Age newspaper on Monday. Maurya said that check-in staff at Delhi airport told him he would not be allowed to travel business class because he "did not look like a businessman". The airline called security and he was whisked out of the airport, the report said.

Maurya, who missed the conference in Belo Horizonte, Brazil, could not be contacted for further comment. But an Alitalia official denied Monday that the state-run carrier screened passengers on the basis of their socio-economic background. "We have no such policy. We have taken the allegation in a very serious way," said Fabio Bigotti, the airline's general manager in India, adding that the company would investigate the charges. "Our mission is to let our passengers fly in a better way."

The Chintan Environmental Research and Action Group reportedly brought Maurya a business-class ticket because all economy tickets had sold out.

-- Edited by malik at 16:21, 2006-09-14

AKLDELNonstop · Member

Malik,

Firstly I'd like to congratulate and thank you for your efforts in trying to procure information. Yes you are indeed correct, that as fellow Indians we must try to help out our brothers. Like you and everyone else on this forum, I neither know Santraj Maurya nor Chintan, however I do feel that this incident(if true) has firstly been a crime against humanity and against a fellow countryman and I am proud of the action you are trying to take.

If I may offer a suggestion though. Why not send a letter to the Editor of Times of India, or any other widely read daily. Because then a larger section of the public would want to know the full details of the incident and the airline would be more pressurised to reveal the details if it is to maintain goodwill in India.

Cheers

Shub

Nimish · Member

Thanks for the update Malik. Keep us posted as this RTI moves through the system. I think AZ should state their policy clearly and take action against the station manager if he violated their policies.

tayara mechanici · Member

SALAM Boss, as we say it in Bombay. Additionally I am happy about the fact that this forum has been a catalyst for the RTI.

Once again Thank You.

malik · Member

Thank you all for your support. The RTI is a mixed bag, still a new tool that many in governance (and at the Infomation Commissions) are getting used to. For example, some pertinent questions by me on fuel adulteration to the Ministry of P&NG have been taken amiss, and needed some straight talk and simple explaining, that it is my right to know about fuel adulteration.

Likewise, this morning's newspaper (HT-Delhi) carries a report that Alitalia has expressed regret, has offered one Business Class RTW or 3 Economy Class RTW tickets to Mr. Maurya, and that the airline has signed a letter with Mr. Maurya, etcetc. In normal circumstances that is where it would end, with a few more gifts here and there.

But the RTI Act makes sure that the matter does not end like this, that an enquiry is held by the authorities and that a decision is published, and that the larger interest is served.

Which is where the efficacy of the RTI Act is very ably assisted by websites like this. After all, no point getting information if it is not published somewhere.

Thanks, again, . . .

tayara mechanici · Member

malik wrote:

Likewise, this morning's newspaper (HT-Delhi) carries a report that Alitalia has expressed regret, has offered one Business Class RTW or 3 Economy Class RTW tickets to Mr. Maurya, and that the airline has signed a letter with Mr. Maurya, etcetc.

Bravo, this is excellent news for the whole of India and Indians world over. I hope we get rid of all our baggage as we gallop forward.

malik · Member

Further - the NGO concerned, CHINTAN, claims to have "settled" the matter with ALITALIA in exchange for an air-ticket. When I asked CHINTAN for more details, the people in charge got all aggressive, saying that the deal they had with ALITALIA included something about an apology.

Nobody has seen the apology, as yet, though.

Me thinks ALITALIA has been let off the hook by our own people for a few pieces of silver . . .