Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Flickr Photo Pool -> Airliners-India -> Civil Aviation -> IA "Widebody" search -- Part 2
Post Info TOPIC: IA "Widebody" search -- Part 2
COUGAR


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Date:
RE: IA "Widebody" search -- Part 2
Permalink Closed

Airbus3xx wrote:


Where did you get this from? I've flown DEL-SIN-DEL as many times as probably you've combed your hair from childhood(okay thats exaggeration). At a burn of 2tonnes/hr for max load, we do pretty well with 70% fuel with 2 alternates Agra & LKO or Jaipur & Jodhpur.


Whoever told you this is severly misinformed. The best range in the family is with the 318 (same wingspan shorter body) and the worst range is the 321.


Full tanks = ~29tonnes


MTOW = ~75tonnnes


So that should give you an idea that unless there is some really nasty headwind the 320 should keep an edurance of approx. 8hrs until tanks go dry.




Dont go purely by stats picked up from the manufacturers brochure! There are a number of variables affecting range and performance: Payload (pax and freight), Head winds, the type of engine and so on. Fuel burn itself cvaries from aircraft to aircraft and wind conditions etc: the 2t per hour figure can only be a rough guess at best.


Qty of fuel carried would directly determine the amount of freight that can be carried. Thus any extra cargo that might need to be carried would directly impact the range.


There have been cases of such unscheduled stopovers which passengers have been told were due to "unforeseen headwinds" or "technical reasons" but which insiders admit have been due to the premium cargo factor. There was even a story on India TV about this. Ok Inida-TV i admit is and source prone to sensationalism but still...


The A320 undoubtedly has the range to fly non-stop from DEL-SIN with a full load of pax and baggage. But how much cargo can a fully loaded V2500 equipped A320, and fuelled for a 6 hour flight carry? So if you have any premium cargo paying top dollar...? Ideally ofcourse a passenger airline should not be turning a scheduled non-stop like this but with commercials putting so much pressure on the ops, do the ops fellows have any choice?


Also is the capacity of the A318 the same as the others? I think the A319 and NOT the A318, has the longest range of the airbus family. My point was that if operationally the IC was having trouble with the A320 on 5 hour+ flights, in that they are not able to carry little or no cargo, the A321 would also be seriously impacted because of even worse range than the A320.


So I think the A321's would be deployed more on domestic metro round robins and to boost capacity on the Gulf routes.



__________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live
karatecatman


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 2289
Date:
Permalink Closed

Cougar,


Isn't Airbus 3xx a commander with IA!!!!!!!!



__________________
KCM
the_380


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 2450
Date:
Permalink Closed

karatecatman wrote:


Cougar,


Isn't Airbus 3xx a commander with IA!!!!!!!!



NEGATIVE! He's not with IA

__________________
Light travels faster than sound...thats why people appear bright, until you hear them talk!
COUGAR


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Date:
Permalink Closed

karatecatman wrote:


Cougar,


Isn't Airbus 3xx a commander with IA!!!!!!!!




 


Dunno. Dont care!


 



__________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live
D-ABTH


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Date:
Permalink Closed

if i remember correctly... i think he mentioned he's a cabin crew member...

in either which case... COUGAR has valid points...

manufacturer stats are purely for base ref

__________________
himmat01


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 318
Date:
Permalink Closed


DABTH wrote:


if i remember correctly... i think he mentioned he's a cabin crew member...

in either which case... COUGAR has valid points...

manufacturer stats are purely for base ref


A3XX is a A320 captain. Crew320 is a FA with IC. A3XX is more informed than the rest of us about A320.



__________________
the_380


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 2450
Date:
RE: IA "Widebody" search -- Part 2
Permalink Closed

DABTH wrote:

if i remember correctly... i think he mentioned he's a cabin crew member...

in either which case... COUGAR has valid points...

manufacturer stats are purely for base ref


IMO rather than continuing a discussion on A3XX in "IA Widebody Search" lets wait till he visits the forum and clarifies this confusion.


Peace 


rgds


the_380



__________________
Light travels faster than sound...thats why people appear bright, until you hear them talk!
D-ABTH


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Date:
RE: IA "Widebody" search -- Part 2
Permalink Closed

himmat01 wrote:


DABTH wrote:


if i remember correctly... i think he mentioned he's a cabin crew member...

in either which case... COUGAR has valid points...

manufacturer stats are purely for base ref


A3XX is a A320 captain. Crew320 is a FA with IC. A3XX is more informed than the rest of us about A320.




good to clear the mixup!

__________________
the_380


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 2450
Date:
Permalink Closed

DABTH wrote:


himmat01 wrote:





DABTH wrote:



if i remember correctly... i think he mentioned he's a cabin crew member...

in either which case... COUGAR has valid points...

manufacturer stats are purely for base ref






A3XX is a A320 captain. Crew320 is a FA with IC. A3XX is more informed than the rest of us about A320.






good to clear the mixup!


Fine i'll add a detail. He's based in SIN. Right kaptan?


rgds


the_380



__________________
Light travels faster than sound...thats why people appear bright, until you hear them talk!
Boeing7xx


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date:
Permalink Closed

Sheesh... Did not know i'd get talked about so much while i was gone. I used to be with IC (CD to be more precise and then IC) am now with a singapore based airline. The Airbus 3xx name came out of my fixation or rather more like desperation for having flown the classic 737s with torn seats for adams.


Coming down to what COUGAR wrote :-


1. "Dont go purely by stats picked up from the manufacturers brochure!"


...... I'm NOT, i'm going more by real experience than stats.


2. "There are a number of variables affecting range and performance: Payload (pax and freight), Head winds, the type of engine and so on. Fuel burn itself cvaries from aircraft to aircraft and wind conditions etc: the 2t per hour figure can only be a rough guess at best."


...... MTOW is usually MAX TAKE OFF WEIGHT (Which means pax, fuel, frieght, dust on the wings, etc, etc). Head winds is something i had mentioned that unless you have a consistent headwind of at least ~70knots and taking into account diversion due to weather, you'd still do a 2~2.2T/hour on an average. (the burn is higer on Taxi, Take off and Landing).


3. "Qty of fuel carried would directly determine the amount of freight that can be carried. Thus any extra cargo that might need to be carried would directly impact the range."


..... Exactly, It is practically impossible to have max freight and max fuel at the same time. However, what is possible is to go easy on the freight since IC largely carries pax and with SQ operating a 777 and other options on this sector Freight economics at best are not with IC (Don't trust me on this, pilots are usually the least informed in any airline).


4.There have been cases of such unscheduled stopovers which passengers have been told were due to "unforeseen headwinds" or "technical reasons" but which insiders admit have been due to the premium cargo factor. There was even a story on India TV about this. Ok Inida-TV i admit is and source prone to sensationalism but still...


..... Having been a regular when DEL-SIN was via BKK and crew would rotate DEL-BKK-DEL & BKK-SIN-BKK I can tell you that there has been exactly one occassion where Kolkatta ATC gave a lower height due to non-availibility of FL and alternate which messed up a lot of things and short of fuel the commander requested alternate. If India TV picked it up, its more like the Air India thing in London.


5."The A320 undoubtedly has the range to fly non-stop from DEL-SIN with a full load of pax and baggage. But how much cargo can a fully loaded V2500 equipped A320, and fuelled for a 6 hour flight carry? So if you have any premium cargo paying top dollar...? Ideally ofcourse a passenger airline should not be turning a scheduled non-stop like this but with commercials putting so much pressure on the ops, do the ops fellows have any choice?"


......... DO I KNOW YOU COUGAR, OR DO I KNOW YOU. Are with ops in IC? I'm too washed out to do the math on this, but the back of the hand tells you that 6hrs at MTOW (excluding fuel, meaning that you load cargo till you only have enough space for fuel) should be around 21tonnes which means you still have scope for an alternate [This is purely back of hand calculations and I might have missed out factors]. Having flown on both the engines, i find the CFM better, quiter and more efficient at lower altitudes than the V2500.


6. I doubt that the 321 will be put on the DEL-SIN route, its more appropriate for MAA-SIN and HYD-SIN to compete with MI.



__________________
Boeing7xx


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date:
Permalink Closed

And just following up, I am a captain on the 320. Having said that I can tell you I've met a lot of tech guys who have far far more knowledge than what I have seen pilots have on the aircraft.

__________________
VABBy


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 298
Date:
Permalink Closed


Being a Logistics guy just wanted to ask u a dumb question and ie if the loads are not very good on the flight is a particular airline able to generate good amount of revenue by taking belly cargo???

__________________
Friend in need is a Friend indeed
COUGAR


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Date:
Permalink Closed

>> Do i know you COUGAR...?


Hey man, I dont go that way da!


I didnt really get the gist of the loong post: but the point is that with a full load of pax and fuel for a long flight, the amount of cargo that can be carried in the fwd belly is next to nothing. Ideally for a pax carrier it should not change things on the ground: its the cargo that should be getting bumped off.


However things change when the cargo we are talking about is Premium rated. FYI Cargo is also rated into :classes: with ratings like X, K, L etc: and Premium cargo means somebody i spaying top-dollar to get his goods out on the next flight. So here commercials will put pressure (and REAL pressure) to ensure that the cargo IS carried and the only practical way to do it without bumping off pax is to operate with lesser fuel and "divert to alternate". And check your records...it HAS happened more than once!!


I agree it shouldnt happen and for a pax carrier, a non-stop should mean a non-stop, but IC commercials is clearly a very aggressive beast these days!


Also with regards to ranges: the A319 has the highest range of the family with 6900 kms, followed by the A318 (6000km) followed by the A320 and A321 (both with 5500kms). Ofcourse these are MAX ranges!!



__________________
http://www.cougar-rides.com
Live to Ride - Ride to Live
Boeing7xx


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date:
Permalink Closed

Ha Ha Ha! Kidding! Anyways, the long post i guess was largely due to fatigue (i tend to chatter more then). Besides, this is the kind of discussion which is missing in crew rooms (open and informative). I really wish that some of the peelots think the same way as you guys. In most cases we end up being DUMB followers of an edict that gets passed down via NOTAMS.


Anyways, my days on the 320 are now numbered. But i guess this is one discussion I'm going to remember for a while.



__________________
«First  <  1 2 3 4 | Page of 4  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.
Flickr Photo Pool -> Airliners-India -> Civil Aviation -> IA "Widebody" search -- Part 2
Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse 		Powered by ActiveBoard