Widebodies in India domestic market - Airliners-India

ssbmat · Member

Widebodies in India domestic market

HAWK21M · Member

Firstly Welcome.

AI fly B772s & B744s

9W will be getting their B773ERs in 2007[currently A330 & A340],followed by AI with the long awaited [Personally] B787s.S2 has one B762.IT has plans for A330,A350 & A380.

So there are a few Widebodies on the way.

Domestic ops with Wide bodies would be profitable but the timings would be an issue.

regds

MEL

-- Edited by HAWK21M at 19:12, 2006-11-20

VABBy · Member

Welcome Aboard Matie. And yes u just got one vote of mine for widebody jets to be operated on domestic routes. I dnt know why Pvt carriers and even IC is shying away from deploying widebody jets on busy domestic legs. My rational is simple The deployment of widebody jets would not only increase pax capacity on the route. It would also free up landing and take off slots at the airport thereby reducing congestion and offcourse control on expenses too..

ssbmat · Member

I was thinking of the take-off and landing slots (already at a premium in BOM/DEL/BLR(?) as also the fact that eventually there would be some cities where the operations would result in 5-6 widebody ops thru the day as opposed to 14-15 !!

I can think of BOM-DEL, BOM-BLR, DEL-BLR, DEL-MAA as city pairs where this would happen-also BOM-GOI possibly ? I remember flying BOM-GOI on the A300s when I was little..

SSB

COUGAR · Member

Depends. Traffic is not a bottomless pit you know: trh emore capacity you deploy doesnt mean it is going to go out full: it has be a balance.

IC was the first airline in the world to operate widebodies on short dedicated domestic flights, but that was at a time when they were the only player. But now Jet, KF, S2 etc etc are all competing for the same market. So there is enough capacity.

Undoubtedly a widebody is cheaper to operate on a per-seat basis. MUCH MUCH cheaper. However introduction of a widebody (more cpacity) would require a reduction of frequency to keep yields intact. THAT is the problem. IC's on the BOM-DEL route for eg put an hourly frequency with A320 (and soon A321) eqpt. The 7am departure could be operated by a AB3 (especially since one is lying idle at BOM that time). However this would mean fewer or no pax for the following 8am flight.

And would there be enough traffic for a return DEL-BOM at 9am? I doubt it!! At one time these AB3's did "round robins": operatin schedule like HYD-DEL-KTM-DEL-CCU-DEL-HYD or BOM-DEL-BLR-BOM and so on. It was uncommon for IC109 to be operated by an Ab3 while IC110 would be a 737-200. I dont think IC (or any other airline) has that flexibility today. Passengers want frequency and only smaller aircraft can guarantee that.

The A320/738 is the PERFECT size for the indian domestic market allowing complete flexibility in route planning. Bigger aircraft like the A321/739 would end up being used only the metros. Guess which route 9W's 2 737-900's operate? DEL-BOM-DEL-BOM-DEL!!! BOTH of them!

saurabhm_101 · Member

I agree with what cougar has to say... also to include that the airport should also be equipped to handle widebodies for domestic flights... i dont think you can park a B772 for a B737 stand... that means making them park at intl ramps? that would be a BIG nono!

rgds
saurabh

VABBy · Member

True that B738/A320 flights provide flexibility but then the question is how much flexibility is too much flexibility. For example 9W operates 2 flights to BOM between 25 min gap in the morning. One is 8am dep from DEL and other is 8:25am dep. Doesnt it make sense to club both these flights by deploying a widebody jet lets say the AB6 or B767.

Offcourse the competetion in the market is there. Bt there are many routes which have matured up thanks to the aviation boom and instead of having multiple flights in day they could be served in peak hours by the widebody aircrafts...

ssbmat · Member

Appreciate your comments. Looks like there could be more operational constraints that offset any financial benefits. What with ramp space,rotation issues etc.

But then there is also the question of cargo, and probably the widebodies (A330 and above) could be used for cargo ops at night or something like that ? I read somewhere that some other majors operate their heavies in this fashion ( I think TG).

But there is also the maxim- you create the market and the people will come flocking, dunno if it fits well enough in the current scenario.

BTW, related to this- Wouldnt the 320 or 738 max out in terms of payload with a full load of 180 pax ? (relevant to DN/SpiceJet/G8) lets say on a DEL-TRV or DEL-COK route ?

Just curious- not having travelled on these hi-density config planes..

SSB

COUGAR · Member

@Vabby: Operating two 738's nearly simultaneosly gives BOM-DEL OD pax the felxibility of chossing 2 flights. But for the airline it gives the flexibility of providing not just more capacity on a route but serving multiple cities, thus splitting capacity.

For eg.. the 7 am BOM-DEL flight could go ahead to LKO on a BOM-DEL-LKO routing thus serving BOM-DEL, DEL-LKO and BOM-LKO routes, while the 0715 flight could operate BOM-DEL-BOM in peak season. WHen the demand for seats on BOM-DEL reduces for that time slot, the dedicated BOM-DEL-BOM flight can be extended to SXR on a BOM-DEL-SXR and vv routing, again serving THREE routes with a single aircraft!

With a widebody you can serve an O&D market very well but can you do this scenario just discussed?

THATS where a A320 /738 sized aircraft does so well!

EDIT: My 100th post on ANET-INDIA!!

-- Edited by COUGAR at 11:15, 2006-11-22

15A · Recruit

My 2 cents on this..

a) Cougar made a valid point talking of return traffic.. morning 7 to 9 going full but return flights going relatively empty . For instance Del-Blr 6:35 AM flight is a 737-800 and goes full but the next flight at 9:50 is a 737-700 and always has several seats free since it is not really a business traveller's flight of preference. Interestingly on Bom-Del, 9W runs the first flight at 6:50/7 as a 737-900 but the next 2 at 8 and 8:05 or 8:25 are a 737-400 and a 737-700 respectively. And they arent looking to change this despite getting more 738s. It gives travellers greater convenience and the loads dont justify bigger aircraft

b) This could change if the government opens up gulf routes to the private carriers - then conceivably you could see a routing like Del-Blr-Dxb-Blr-Del on a widebody like a A330 which is then the perfect utilisation of the aircraft providing useful capacity on domestic during peak hours and doing an international service in between. South east asian routes which are open are 2 far even from Chennai/Blr to make it back in time to catch the domestic peak hours.

c) Parking slots could be a big problem- and taking a bus to an aircraft parked at the international terminals can be very very time consuming at Del and Bom (Any experiences of people catching either the once a week 9w night flight on Bom-Del-Bom or the 9W Del-Atq once a week which is an A330/A340 aircraft ?)

d) On the question of Del-Trv or Del-Cok - just dont think there is enough traffic to justify many flights on this route- any one have any idea of how Sahara's Del-Cok-Trv-Del is doing. Which aircraft are they using (id guess a 737-700)

e) Spice Jet has ordered the 900ER - interesting to see how it goes. Any idea on when it comes in ?

tayara mechanici · Member

Operating a WB on short haul busy routes cannot always equate to lower CASK. The factors to take into consideration given everything else is equal :-

Seating config.

Ops cost, which has a implication on breakeven load.

Daily utilisation.

Ops cost can increase significantly for a WB if operated on short haul (<2hrs) due to cycles limited equipment maintenance i.e. Engines, Gears etc. The NB is designed for short multiple hops and scores on this count.

The avg turnaround time for a A330 is 90min whereas a A320/321 can be turned around in 40min or less doing more sectors leading to higher revenue potential i.e. RASK.

A simple example to avoid ''recreating the wheel'' is to follow the USA and EU markets (as India is considered to be equal to continental EU in size). The majors in USA are slowly moving to NBs & RJs for most of their domestic sectors (most airlines in USA were tied down by pilots scope clause) and in the EU the LCCs with NBs have routed the Charter Operators on the southern EU routes (Max 3hrs) where the Charters have operated WB in the past, the smallest type in the fleet of charters was a B757-200 at 230 pax in single config.

Now don't start jumping to the conclusion that T/A times in India at 30mins is impossible. With the rapid exit ways coming into use at DEL/BOM this will be the norm, atleast among the leaders.