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Post Info TOPIC: JET & SAHARA to be cleared for Gulf


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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/India_Business/Govt_to_open_Gulf_routes_for_Jet_Air_Sahara/articleshow/msid-808515,curpg-2.cms


NEW DELHI: This would probably be the government's new year gift for India's two designated private airlines, Jet Airways and Air Sahara.

The government is planning to review its norms for operating flights to the Middle East a protected sector that is today operated only the state-owned airlines and open it up for designated private airlines too.

This, sources said, is part of the government's move to unshackle the protection that's currently being given to state-owned carriers and prepare them to compete in a free market.

A ministry of civil aviation spokesperson, when contacted, denied any such move. "A review of the protection norm for flights to Gulf is underway.

The government is examining the feasibility of opening up the Gulf route to designated private airlines and its impact on the state-owned carriers," a source close to the development told The Times of India.

The review is expected to be completed by early next year, following which the revised norm would be referred to the Union Cabinet for a formal approval.

If approved, this would mean that Jet and Air Sahara would be able to start flights to the Gulf region, including United Arab Emirates (UAE), Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.


Bollywood ka story hai bola na...........



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it seems that press report forgot to mention that after Cabinet, the proposal will go to empowered group of ministers before is made a law.  If cabinet approval is what is required, then this is hardly a news as this kind of rumour has been going rounds for a while now.
All this reminds one of the anxiety we had before AI and IC plane orders.  And if I am not wrong, that was exactly a year ago.
rgds
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This is ridiculous!!


Unshackle Pvt carriers all you want, but then free IC from the obligation of flyng unrpofitable routes along with it. The other Govt carrier Air India has no such obligation and thus IC is the main looser.


Right now 20% of IC's capacity is deployed on their Gulf routes and it earns them 40% of their oeprational profit: this helps to balance out the losses made of some of the social flights. By law,  airlines are supposed to deploy 10% of their capacity on these routes. IC deploys over 30% of its capacity on these routes. Either the Govt imposes more stringent route dispersal guidelines for Domestic carriers or allows IC to reduce their social flights to bring it on par with other domestic carriers.


AI is right now free of any social obligation. This is ridiculous. The Govt should consider selling off AI, stopping all sibsidies including those doled out in the name of Haj and others and end their monopoly on Gulf routes. AI should also be asked to share the responsibility and operate social flights by brinigng it under the route dispersal guidelines regime. After all they now have narrowbodies which can operate to the North Eastern airports like Imphal and Agartala. And i think there is a demand for a IXA-BOM non-stop!



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Aseem wrote:


  this is hardly a news as this kind of rumour has been going rounds for a while now.



Well, probably you are correct. This could be a rumour, then it makes me wonder about all the movement in airline stocks in a deflated market

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COUGAR wrote:



This is ridiculous!!


Unshackle Pvt carriers all you want, but then free IC from the obligation of flyng unrpofitable routes along with it. The other Govt carrier Air India has no such obligation and thus IC is the main looser.


Right now 20% of IC's capacity is deployed on their Gulf routes and it earns them 40% of their oeprational profit: this helps to balance out the losses made of some of the social flights. By law,  airlines are supposed to deploy 10% of their capacity on these routes. IC deploys over 30% of its capacity on these routes. Either the Govt imposes more stringent route dispersal guidelines for Domestic carriers or allows IC to reduce their social flights to bring it on par with other domestic carriers.


AI is right now free of any social obligation. This is ridiculous. The Govt should consider selling off AI, stopping all sibsidies including those doled out in the name of Haj and others and end their monopoly on Gulf routes. AI should also be asked to share the responsibility and operate social flights by brinigng it under the route dispersal guidelines regime. After all they now have narrowbodies which can operate to the North Eastern airports like Imphal and Agartala. And i think there is a demand for a IXA-BOM non-stop!






How about if the Govt of India applies a levy on every ticket sold by all the airlines operating in India except IC, towards paying for ICs various handicaps i.e. Incompetent staff & Management, Poor routes, unairworthy aircraft and engines, govt shackles, tax-payers money etc. I am sure this should help with IC turning in a profit.


Something like we payed on the BEST bus ticket in Bombay to support Bangladesh.



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tayara mechanici wrote:





How about if the Govt of India applies a levy on every ticket sold by all the airlines operating in India except IC, towards paying for ICs various handicaps i.e. Incompetent staff & Management, Poor routes, unairworthy aircraft and engines, govt shackles, tax-payers money etc. I am sure this should help with IC turning in a profit.


Something like we payed on the BEST bus ticket in Bombay to support Bangladesh.




why can't GOI come up with a regulation such those interested in flying out international early and to gulf, service unprofitable routes in NE.  There would be no subsidies for IC, and no associated administrative costs.  That way we would see competition in NE as well.  It might pinch likes of KF, but DN et al won't mind.
rgds
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GOI's latest brainwave:


North East is to be freed up gradually with an exclusive/dedicated airline just for this region. Is to have a fleet of Bombardier type jets and ATR as well.


Other airlines are then free to codeshare with this new airline to link to and for with the rest of India.


This is the latest in the corridors of Air India.




-- Edited by karatecatman at 11:59, 2006-12-14

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I would agree with Aseem to have rules on operating non-profitable routes before you get to fly intl.
Not fair if IC continues Jamnagar and Bhuj and Jet and Sahara fly out to Gulf.


Who knows assuming 9W and S2 are cleared to fly Gulf on 1st Jan 2007 they start ops within a week and by Nov 2007 they stop operations to all non-profitable routes or even less profitable routes, IC loses in such a sense.


Atleast a rule can be implemented that if you cancel more than 2 dom ops after you're cleared intl then one intl route will be withdrawn from you.


That would make sense and share IC's burden in the true sense of Cougar's words.



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Aseem wrote:



 

why can't GOI come up with a regulation such those interested in flying out international early and to gulf, service unprofitable routes in NE. 




If i am not mistaken there is a escape clause for airlines not operating to the N-E wherein they pay the airlines operating extra seats some sort of a fee. I believe KingFisher has a arrangement with DN for flying its share of the obligation.


The above seems to be a working practise any more regulation will end up with more losses to the airlines than the total gains ever expected for the economies of the N-E states. IMO the N-E offers an absolutely virgin natural eco-tourism potential for a young and affluent indian population, its not long before every joe blog or is it ramu wants to be there. Let the market forces evolve going forward.


With regards to AI / IA its high time we started talking about some self respect and self introspection on the part of these 2 and their employees. It has been proven worldwide that you cannot run a airline as a state enterprise due to the inherent inefficiencies, exception being the ME and Sin. Alitalia, Olympic airways are standing examples  of wasted oppurtunities in the robust EU market.


 



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tayara mechanici wrote:



Aseem wrote:



 

why can't GOI come up with a regulation such those interested in flying out international early and to gulf, service unprofitable routes in NE. 






If i am not mistaken there is a escape clause for airlines not operating to the N-E wherein they pay the airlines operating extra seats some sort of a fee. I believe KingFisher has a arrangement with DN for flying its share of the obligation.






Kingfisher has the arrangement with IA.


Under route dispersal guidelines issued by the MoCA, IA is undertaking this at a slightly uneven share.


IA also issued an advt recently, auctioning these routes and offering to operate them on behalf of other airlines.



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Tayara,


Half knowledge is dangerous, exactly what you've demonstrated here. You've formed an opinion based on what you believe is the truth instead of digging a little further. IC has been flying the NE Sectors, J&K, Andaman & Lakshadweep sectors for adams, as a socio-political obligation to the nation. The inefficiencies in the system have nothing to do with the sectors that an airline flies. Connecting the two subjects to make a point is quite not done.


IC has been shackled for long by the GOI who treats both AI & IA pretty shoddily. During the tsunami we were flying Chennai to Port Blair 8times a day with ZERO revenue. During the floods in Gujrat, we were ferrying passengers out, during the Gulf war, IC carried back enough people. I can go on-and-on. Such operations are never (and can never) be costed for.


A simple and more recent example, the 'flood' in mumbai, IC was the only airline which was operating in 24 hours after the entire aftermath. I can tell you the way we ran ferrys OUT of mumbai were a life saver considering that Jet and the others really didn't have staff to man the counters, forget planes and mx services, we ferried the staff in from Delhi and Hyderabad while other airlines were twiddling without any information. I think what you call as an inefficient system, somehow ends up being a life-saver in emergency situations.


About unairworthy aircrafts, i've flown the so called unairworthy aircrafts between Delhi srinagar and leh,doing as many as 6 landings in a day, so much for unairworthy aircrafts operating in high altitude environs. Amazingly though for someone calling SQ good, SQ has aircrafts as old as the Alliance aircrafts as well, but its just that you don't see them on brochures.


Net-net, you're entitled to your opinion, but make sure you do sufficient research before you trash out a whole organization by generalizing it as "worthless" "Inefficient" and "incompetent".



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COUGAR wrote:


Unshackle Pvt carriers all you want, but then free IC from the obligation of flyng unrpofitable routes along with it. The other Govt carrier Air India has no such obligation and thus IC is the main looser.



Right now 20% of IC's capacity is deployed on their Gulf routes and it earns them 40% of their oeprational profit: this helps to balance out the losses made of some of the social flights. By law,  airlines are supposed to deploy 10% of their capacity on these routes. IC deploys over 30% of its capacity on these routes. Either the Govt imposes more stringent route dispersal guidelines for Domestic carriers or allows IC to reduce their social flights to bring it on par with other domestic carriers.





I agree - the govt should ease the mandate for IC to fly to so many unprofitable routes. That being said, for all you know, it's not the govt's doing, but just some IC mandarin wanting to make sure he has a first class seat every day to his village.

Cougar - if IC is flying 30% of capacity on "these" routes, they can sell the additional deployed capacity to slackers like IT - all for profit. I hope IC is doing that right now?

Besides, if IC wanted to withdraw some of the unprofitable routes right now, I'm sure Praful Patel and Ajay Prasad will not disagree. So why doesn't IC cut back on unprofitable routes?

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Boeing7xx wrote:



Tayara,


Half knowledge is dangerous, exactly what you've demonstrated here. You've formed an opinion based on what you believe is the truth instead of digging a little further. IC has been flying the NE Sectors, J&K, Andaman & Lakshadweep sectors for adams, as a socio-political obligation to the nation. The inefficiencies in the system have nothing to do with the sectors that an airline flies. Connecting the two subjects to make a point is quite not done.


IC has been shackled for long by the GOI who treats both AI & IA pretty shoddily. During the tsunami we were flying Chennai to Port Blair 8times a day with ZERO revenue. During the floods in Gujrat, we were ferrying passengers out, during the Gulf war, IC carried back enough people. I can go on-and-on. Such operations are never (and can never) be costed for.


A simple and more recent example, the 'flood' in mumbai, IC was the only airline which was operating in 24 hours after the entire aftermath. I can tell you the way we ran ferrys OUT of mumbai were a life saver considering that Jet and the others really didn't have staff to man the counters, forget planes and mx services, we ferried the staff in from Delhi and Hyderabad while other airlines were twiddling without any information. I think what you call as an inefficient system, somehow ends up being a life-saver in emergency situations.


About unairworthy aircrafts, i've flown the so called unairworthy aircrafts between Delhi srinagar and leh,doing as many as 6 landings in a day, so much for unairworthy aircrafts operating in high altitude environs. Amazingly though for someone calling SQ good, SQ has aircrafts as old as the Alliance aircrafts as well, but its just that you don't see them on brochures.


Net-net, you're entitled to your opinion, but make sure you do sufficient research before you trash out a whole organization by generalizing it as "worthless" "Inefficient" and "incompetent".






Firstly i am an ex-AI employee and have seen the workings of these organisation myself. I've been involved in the 1991 Gulf-war evacuation etc etc. My point is that the ''PROJECTED'' benefits of these 2 org thru their ''socio-political obligation'' is far too less compared to the losses incurred due to the prefrential treatement offered to these ''Holy Cows''. You have employees of these org with a productivity levels of half of the pvt airlines, and this inspite of the luxury of top of the range equipment i.e. Training simulators, Hangars, Terminals etc.


These trumpted claims of AI / IA can carry on since they are the biggest operators in India and their continued protected status contributes to restricting the growth of pvt airlines and developing a healthy aviation industry. Here in U.K. i work in a hangar built in the late 60s. We have 4 lines of maint not a single line has got full docking facility, neither do they have the support of associated workshops inspite of this these guys turnout business worth $200m/yr from Maint only. This is with a workforce of roughly 600 staff, contractors are added during the peak seasons. The parent airline presently has a B767 flying for the Ministry of Defense moving troops and equipment to various zones. Normally they have a B757 carrying a lot of these dangerous goods. The PM of Britain travel by a chartered BA B777 or A320 depending on the requirement. During the Tsunami the govt chartered many aircrafts to get British nationals from various locations.


So for heaven sake get out of the ground and leave a level playing field for all others than we can decide if the pvt airlines fail in their social responsibilities. The major benefactors of these 2 airlines are none other than the corrupt Bureucrats, Politicians and the unscruples employees. I've flown in NGP flying club with the daughter of a ex-IA Ops Director. This bird was dangerous as per the instructor, in the 6 months i was there her father had visited the club twice to lean on the poor instructor. This female went on to get a job in AI and i was witness to the radio transmission between the DXB tower and the AI A310 she was flying as it took off into the path of a approaching CX B747.


And it is this lot that have infiltrated the whole administrative and political setup in the country and hover over it like corrosion does to metal. Flying unairworthy aircrafts makes you just as culpable of the crime as a truck driver driving over pedestrians with a unsafe vehicle, you are only favouring yourself by trying to retain your job. How long does India bear with this viscious circle of DGCA turning a blind eye on a IA /AI because they are all related to each other and cover up for their follies. Look at Telecoms, i was fed up running behind the useless bhaiyas and ghati telephone technicians of MTNL as a kid, trying to sort out our landline every month. The same blokes were at my place in less than 30min flat the last time i complained during my visit to BOM. I was shocked out of my socks at the service, this kind of service is now due in aviation too. 



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Nimish wrote:



COUGAR wrote:





Unshackle Pvt carriers all you want, but then free IC from the obligation of flyng unrpofitable routes along with it. The other Govt carrier Air India has no such obligation and thus IC is the main looser.




Right now 20% of IC's capacity is deployed on their Gulf routes and it earns them 40% of their oeprational profit: this helps to balance out the losses made of some of the social flights. By law,  airlines are supposed to deploy 10% of their capacity on these routes. IC deploys over 30% of its capacity on these routes. Either the Govt imposes more stringent route dispersal guidelines for Domestic carriers or allows IC to reduce their social flights to bring it on par with other domestic carriers.








I agree - the govt should ease the mandate for IC to fly to so many unprofitable routes. That being said, for all you know, it's not the govt's doing, but just some IC mandarin wanting to make sure he has a first class seat every day to his village.

Cougar - if IC is flying 30% of capacity on "these" routes, they can sell the additional deployed capacity to slackers like IT - all for profit. I hope IC is doing that right now?

Besides, if IC wanted to withdraw some of the unprofitable routes right now, I'm sure Praful Patel and Ajay Prasad will not disagree. So why doesn't IC cut back on unprofitable routes?




IA is doing that for IT already and has begun auctioning its share for other airlines to pick up. Will then operate this on their behalf. Have the detailed official document and trying to locate it. 


...


Praful Bhaiyya and Prasad will not disagree? When the issue of congestion surcharge came up, the answer was as clear as day. IA was TOLD NOT TO impose it. Private airlines were requested to try not to implement it. So, ..........    



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karatecatman wrote:


IA is doing that for IT already and has begun auctioning its share for other airlines to pick up. Will then operate this on their behalf. Have the detailed official document and trying to locate it.


Praful Bhaiyya and Prasad will not disagree? When the issue of congestion surcharge came up, the answer was as clear as day. IA was TOLD NOT TO impose it. Private airlines were requested to try not to implement it. So,.........





Well - if IC is making money out of these "loss making" routes - then I don't see what the problem is - they should be able to cover up the perceived losses through the auction of the rights.

Regarding the Congestion Charge - I don't think IC was the originator of the idea, I'm guessing if IC had originated the idea via a raise in the fares ex-DEL/BOM, then PP would probably have said yes.

And if they present a plan to change the loss making routes (whatever they are) with profitable routes, then once again PP will hopefully agree. Otherwise, the mgmt has to do what it does best - keep trying to push these changes through until the govt agrees.

PS: This is all my hope about PP - I have no clue if he'll actually do what I'm saying he will!

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Though not related directly to this topic, i wanted to post this news here, they mention about TP being on the prowl once again. As we all know they are investing in SPICE. I hope a reputable VC like TP or 3i takeover AI / IA and turn them around, this might sound wishfull thinking but is possible. 


Qantas deal reflects private equity's wider horizon 


Texas Pacific is on the prowl once more. In addition to Qantas, it is looking at other airlines, particularly in Asia.
 


http://www.moneyweb.co.za/shares/international_news/521585.htm



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 Hi guys,


 Just cam back from office and opened up to check watz happening here and wow here i see a real kick ass thread live in action. So guys lemme add a bit fuel to the fire too


  Tayara i would have to agree with Boeing7xx here. No matter how much worse the condition might be of the state owned airlines bt they are the ones who come to the rescue or evacuations of Indian citizens for which i always feel proud.


 I was in sydney when israel was bombarding lebanon and it really made me feel proud when indian govt quickly dispatched an Indian Naval Ship to evacuate indians from that region and how they were sent to a safe area where Air India planes were ready to take them back home.


While our aussie mates were banking heavily on british and french navies to save their people which went wrong in a big way...


Why didnt Jet sent one of its A340-300 to evacuate indian citizens in distress?? After all its also one of the flag carrier of India and being one they got some responsibilties towards the nation and its people And its nt just abt the Jet even Qantas didnt offer any help to aussies..


 


As far as congestion charge is concerned i guess pvt air carriers are really being witty here. They have been accussing AAI and aviation ministry for inadequate infrastructure and charging people for it but wat abt the CAT3B ILS. DGCA i guess last to last year had slammed these carriers big time and asked them to train their pilots on the system so that flights could operate in fog.


If flight movement stops due to fog its the airlines to blame who dnt have the sufficient pilots to operate flights in low visibility conditions and after the normal operations resume then i guess airlines have to be blamed for the delays becoz if the flights wud have operated during the fog conditions the congestion wudnt have been there.


  Even today at IGIA only IC flights along with international flights use CAT3B while the pvt carriers just simply cancel or delay the flights. If such carriers cant provide a reliable service round of the year its shamefull on their part.


Agreed profitibility is important bt profitability at the cost of social responsibility is not acceptable. If these pvt carriers think that by just flying bunch of underpriviledged children they are in the good books as contribution towards the society is concerned then i guess they are highly mistaken


 


And as far as going to gulf is concerned if this actualy happens good luck to both of them



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VABBy wrote:



 


 Why didnt Jet sent one of its A340-300 to evacuate indian citizens in distress?? After all its also one of the flag carrier of India and being one they got some responsibilties towards the nation and its people And its nt just abt the Jet even Qantas didnt offer any help to aussies..


 





evacuations don't happen on the basis of charity, these are carefully thought strategies and in the case of India it is evolving post Tsunami. The Captain of the INS made a statement where he said that INavy is not 24/7 equiped for these tragedies in the form of a fully equiped container onboard with necessary provision. You guys seem to miss the point all along. The British and French govt have a deal with their airlines to prioritise towards these calamities in times of crisis. And in the abscence of any so called national airline the pvt airlines in these countries have lived up to their role, i don't see any reason why it could be any diff with our pvt airlines.


Did the GOI request 9W for lift during the crisis, in any case 9W was operating a a/c with AI which could have been deployed by AI towards this. The point i am driving is these are 2 Commercial Airlines that have come to the aid of the Nation in times of calamity. And for a long time these 2 alone have operated out of India under a monopoly regime which has stiffled Indian aviation and lead to the rise of EK & SQ in our neighbourhood. Citing these far and few between rescue operations as the proof of their indispensable existence is absurd.  



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tayara mechanici wrote:


evacuations don't happen on the basis of charity, these are carefully thought strategies and in the case of India it is evolving post Tsunami. The Captain of the INS made a statement where he said that INavy is not 24/7 equiped for these tragedies in the form of a fully equiped container onboard with necessary provision. You guys seem to miss the point all along. The British and French govt have a deal with their airlines to prioritise towards these calamities in times of crisis. And in the abscence of any so called national airline the pvt airlines in these countries have lived up to their role, i don't see any reason why it could be any diff with our pvt airlines.

Did the GOI request 9W for lift during the crisis, in any case 9W was operating a a/c with AI which could have been deployed by AI towards this. The point i am driving is these are 2 Commercial Airlines that have come to the aid of the Nation in times of calamity. And for a long time these 2 alone have operated out of India under a monopoly regime which has stiffled Indian aviation and lead to the rise of EK & SQ in our neighbourhood. Citing these far and few between rescue operations as the proof of their indispensable existence is absurd.  





Allright agreed that even 9W operated 737s during Tsunami evacuation... but did they do it for free?


No way they charged for it...  they even considered their profits into it? In such a situation where the country needs help do you look into your profit first? If your answer is yes then fine go to hell no Gulf no intl routes for you. IC/AI never looked into profits during such times... its a different thing that it wouldn't be considered although.


Talking about INS its not that they just send any ship and start evacuations... proximity from the base, availibility of adequate ships considering the port size, water depth, etc. Just like how you cannot send 747s or 310s to Bhuj and Port Blair. 9W took advantage that it had 737s. Even if they operated it then why was a propaganda done about it in the media and also in every flight?


My cousins flew BLR from CCU at that time and before the pre-flight announcements were made, the crew 'announced' about what 9W had been doing to "help" the victims.


I totally agree with VABBy on his point as to why didn't 9W send its 340s for helping the evacuations. Why should 9W get any credit at all then? AI and IC come first in such situations where help is needed.


A simple case: Why don't any private airlines offer Stretcher Services??? Expenses, delays thats why... they look into profits not social service.


If so much profit oriented and you forget humanity then struggle and earn from domestic only... Lets see tum mein kitna dum hai?



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Gulf to remain IA, A-I monopoly

Indian Airlines and Air-India might get to hold on to exclusive rights to the highly lucrative Gulf sector beyond the January 2008 deadline.

As part of the new civil aviation policy expected to come into effect early next year, the government has proposed extending the restriction on private carriers from operating in the Gulf region to 2010.


More Here

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